easy breezy BEAUTIFUL

Dove here. This is my follow up to the now mildly infamous post by PagerStalker last week. I have loved the discussion his post sparked and it seems that whether readers agree with PS or not, his ideas have made all of us think, him included. He really liked and agreed with many of your arguments against him. His purpose really wasn't to persuade anyone or win any fights, rather to give you something to think about. That is one of the things that I hope this blog does is expand our minds (along with offering some occasional extreme shallowness).

So many great points on both sides. In the end I hope we all have an increased tolerance for differing viewpoints. I know I do. This discussion has rekindled in me some ideas about beauty that at one time were on the forefront of my mind. I used to teach anthropology at at university. Oh man, that was fun. Well, I learned some things through that experience that were fascinating. Bear with me while I bust out some anthro wisdom here.

To those who disputed PS's claim that what we are attracted to is biological, I've got news for you. There actually IS a strong biological component to attraction. For instance, all the stereotypical things men are attracted to in women (breasts, curves, full lips, nice hair, youth etc) happen to be indicators that a woman has an abundance of estrogen, which is an indicator of reproductive fitness. Evolutionarily speaking, beauty helps men identify women who will bear them large numbers of children and be able to take care of the children after birth, hence ensuring a perpetuation of the male's genes. (However, thanks to modern science, one can easily attain any of these features with enough money.)

Now, this doesn't mean that society doesn't have an influence on us. Certainly it does. PS and I discussed a fascinating social experiment wherein we travel to remote civilizations (or is this just a good excuse to act on my incurable case of wanderlust?) and show their inhabitants pictures of several women and see which women they select as beautiful. Would those nomadic Mongolians choose Pamela Anderson? Well, she's an extreme example and I would venture to guess that someone who hasn't been exposed to American culture would find her repulsive in her completely unnatural extremities.

Would they be more likely to find someone who was more in the range of what is typical for women?

This begs a different question that frequently tumbles around the cavity of my mind. What is beauty? Why is it defined so differently from culture to culture? Take for instance the neck rings women in Thailand wear...

Why in the world is this considered attractive?? Interestingly, these brass coils don't actually stretch the neck as many believe, they deform the collarbones by pushing them down. Click here to see video of how they do this.

Another seemingly nutty concept of beauty is small feet. You may have seen this in your inbox, I've received it a number of times.

See how her toes are bent around to the bottom of her foot.

Now, I wish my feet were more dainty for sure, but this seems a bit ridiculous.

UNTIL...

You think about how the people in these other cultures might possibly think we are a little off our rockers in our ideas of beauty. Women are scrambling to have Botox (botulism...poison) injected in their faces to make them look younger. (And for the record, it sounds dangerous and scary, but in reality it's very safe.)

Sandblasting our faces (microderm abrasion), willingly inviting deadly melanoma into our lives (tanning beds), burning our hair follicles (laser hair removal), surgically placing silicon bags under the muscle in our chests to make it appear that we are uber-estrogenish. I think we are just as nutty, it just doesn't seem as bizarre to us because it is what we know. The Thai women with the neck rings don't see their traditions as barbaric either.

In the end, aren't we all just trying to display the fanciest feathers to attract the fanciest peacock? Isn't it all about mating rituals?

Well, I'll tell you what. I LOVE Mavis's post yesterday and that she is trying to implement more  shine in her marriage. When I was a little chickidee, my dad used to sit down with my sister and I and have these very serious talks with us. He would tell us that we would likely grow up to be lovely women, but that that was a gift and had NOTHING to do with us. Pure genetics. Then he would tell us to make sure that we are beautiful on the inside and treat others beautifully.

Werd to yer muther.

Whether we are pro-plastic or not, there is room for all of us in this world. I, personally, am okay with my imperfections. My body is not perfect and never will be. I think it would be a pretty boring world if we all had the means to have ourselves cosmetically sculpted to resemble some arbitrary ideal. It would be like driving through that Edward Scizzorhands neighborhood. Laaaaaame. BUT, because I'm working on my inner beauty, you can bet that I will be able to love someone with falsies or someone with a few hundy pounds to spare.

And this is the end, my only friend the end (that was to annoy all you Doors haters).

Love, Dove (what a cute ring that has)

Tomorrow is the last day to enter the Miss Ruby Sue giveaway found here.

Eye of the beholder?

Let me tell you right now, this post is all over the place. You are forewarned.

Ah, plastic surgery. I used to say "I'd never". Now I say, "I can see why". To an extent. I have spent the majority of my youth (pre kids) being within normal range in weight. I have never had large boobs (with the exception being pregnancy and nursing - and I was never too impressed), in fact was teased for having nothing on top. But I like it. Embrace it. It fits my shape (or lack there of). And I have never been a Buns of Steel kind of gal but I do a good job of eating well and being in relatively good shape. But even in my prime, I never had a tush like Audrina, of Hill's fame. I always had saddle-y baggage (but I would love to have that 20 year old backside that I shunned back compared to what I have now!).

I am now 32. Having fluctuated by 60-75 lbs three separate times in 5 years has not done me any favors. Nursing three hungry babies has contributed. And while I am back down to pre-children weight, I will never have a taut tush. Gravity has taken its toll and the saddle bags are blending with the seat. I don't know if my stomach will ever be rockin' like it once was and I marvel that my boobs can be so small and yet be flabby and empty. I want my perky back. The problem? I don't want size, just my old friends, where they used to sit and I want them to point the same direction without me manually correcting them. Although I have no plans for surgery, I cannot honestly rule it out. And although I will be the one to decide and my husband somehow is still wildly attracted to me, he would not deter me from adding some trinkets to the top shelf, if you know what I mean. And if I wanted to reshape the backside because it would make me feel better about myself, he would not be disgruntled.

Back to the plastic. Would the post have had a different effect/reaction on/from you if it had been written by a woman? I mean, PS did focus on women and the parts of us that are widely sexualized by both genders. He brought up some interesting points. I could be wrong but I don't think that PS ever said that if you are heavy or flabby bypass healthy options like eating well and exercising and head straight to the nearest doc. I am all for people being comfortable with their bodies. But I also think that if they have something they would like to "improve" with surgery when all else has failed or there is no hope of your ideal shape returning, more power to you. And, duh, it should be a personal choice, done for yourself but frankly, if you are doing something to make you look better aren't you going to feel better and feel sexy? What is wrong with that? And although we all have different types we are attracted to, you have to admit that a great personality can only get a possible suitor so far. You have to be to physically attracted to someone, even a little bit, for a long-lasting relationship to happen. And yes, after a while, it all kind of melds together - the physical and the mental relationship - but repulsion or indifference does not a merry couple make.

And let me say this now. I'm ok with plastic surgery for anyone who wants it. It does scare me when you have those that do it to fit the mold that they feel society has pressured them in to. Or do it for some sort of attention or to feel accepted. And I think that is what some of you readers were referring to. Then there are those who have become addicted to it. Who is that woman who has over 50 surgeries? The human Barbie doll. Pamela Anderson. Michael Jackson. Carrot Top. Not ok with me.

And do we have a double standard? I have a friend who is a size 2 or less and had size quintupled D sized bazoombas. I say had because she had them reduced. Not because they were hurting her but because she was self-conscience of her appearance. Not one of her friends tsk tsked her or thought she was vain but isn't it the exact same thing as being self-conscience of your appearance when you feel your chest is lacking? And then enhancing them? And even though a reduction (or at least hers at the time) did not leave her boobs looking beautiful sans clothing(scarring), she was more confident in her appearance and it showed in how she acted. Good for her.

Then there is my friend who had a nose job when she was 20. Those who knew her then said that they could barely tell the difference between the old nose and the new nose, but she felt better about it.

And what about men who decide to have lipo? Or pec implants? Or those calf implants that Dove loves? Society would probably raise an eye to such stuff but not the kind of scrutiny that women receive (from both sexes!) when they choose plastic surgery. And studies show men are quickly becoming front runners in plastic surgery procedures. But mostly we judge the women. We are all guilty of it.

And so what if it is vain. Would you buy the pair of jeans that make you look like you have mom butt over the pair that compliments your derriere? Do you wear makeup? Even lip gloss? Have you ever had your hair colored? Have you ever picked the insanely uncomfortable high heels over the flats because you knew that your legs looked amazing in the heels? Pedicure? Feels good but makes those toesies look pretty. Vanity. I know that it is a bit different from a medical procedure but an a smaller scale it is peacocking at its finest. And to be honest, I usually dress for the women anyway. Dave thinks I am pretty hot, but rarely digs my style. The women in the room are the ones that notice. Vanity. I own it.


~mavis

Amanda of Through the Looking Glass fame and who has contributed over here with this post and this post is a finalist in a spa contest. Go here and leave a comment on her post and it will give her a vote. Please. If you read through all the finalists, you will see she is clearly the winner.

speaking of peacocking - you'll be the prettiest with a Miss Ruby Sue adorning your person, remember to enter the giveaway! Or just go do something nice for someone anyway.

and head on over to christy's home at a lil' welsh rare bit, she has got a great giveaway

Don't hate me for being beautiful

Chirpers, Mavis here. We at We Chirp are many things, but close-minded is not one of them. Opinionated? Very. Brunette? Yep. Super dang smart? You betcha. Always willing to learn something new? Affirmative. We are lovers of others' points of view. We love to hear and take part in thought provoking conversations. Our (well, Dove's. But Hi PagerStalker, I'm Mavis - heard great things about you, can we be friends?) friend PagerStalker has written something so thought provoking that we had to share it.

Dove was a little worried that it might offend some of our readers but I assured her (and she knows) that we are a smart and deep bunch. Without giving my own opinion about this topic of which you are about to read (because you might be surprised and you will hear it soon), I ask that you read it, ponder it, mull it over or go right ahead and respond. But no matter what you think, we would love to hear it. Of course, we love it even more when it is done with respect and decorum. Since I read PS's essay a few days ago, it has made me think things over, rethink previous opinions, form stronger ones and had me befuddled for a moment.

One more thing before you begin, PS is a medical doctor, but he is not a plastic surgeon. He does not benefit from pushing more silicon or slicing and sucking. Oh, and he is not a chauvinistic jerk. This you should know as you read. Here goes...


So what I say may be a little offensive, or maybe not offensive, but certainly disagreeable. I would like to talk about beauty and sexual attraction for a moment. But let’s start with this concept:

Let’s say you have a child that is born with a cleft lip. A cleft lip does not really affect a person’s functionally (unlike a cleft palate which certainly does affect function.) So to fix this defect is clearly just cosmetic. However, all of you would not think it too vain to fix. For one, the child will suffer from being an object of ridicule – no doubt and will develop self-esteem problems. But what of the argument that he should just learn to love himself, just the way God, or the Great IS (a Jonathon Livingston Seagull reference – how cool am I) created him? Well, what if he was in a foreign land and came to this country as an adult – so no more children teasing? Would you allow him, or fault him to get it fixed then?

Now let’s change the scenario. Let’s say that you have a few kids. Having a large uterus stretches out the rectus sheath so that what once could have been a washboard tight stomach is now two inches apart - and that’s just the lateral stretch. You also get the vertical stretch that leaves extra skin and marks up the once smooth and silky tummy with stretch marks and an extra pouch. And here is the deal – no amount of running and/or sit-ups can change it.
Your breasts get filled with life-giving milk, and then, after stretching the supporting ligaments, the milk leaves – and after a few rounds of children, they become just a shell of what they once were. No bench pressing or whatever can restructure that stretched tissue.

So what is my point? Many people have a real problem with plastic surgery. They find it vain. I don’t. I think it very useful. Tell me seriously – what is the difference between the cleft lip person who wants to look normal, and the mom who wants to again look normal? We know what looks good on a face – and that is a complete lip. We also know what looks optimal on women – it is normal looking (full and perky– not big – I am NOT saying that) breasts and a flat stomach. Now I already know what some of you are thinking – you are saying that what I am calling good looking or pleasing is what society has told us what women need to look like - and that it is ridiculous and women should be able to look however they want and not by what society claims. Well, I have two things to say to that. First, I do agree that you can look like however you want and that is great to be totally comfortable with how you look and are. But I have NEVER met anyone that would take being 400 lbs over having a trim body if someone could wave a magic wand. They just wouldn’t. Second, I disagree COMPLETELY that it is what society says that looks good. It has nothing to do with society. It is complete physiology.

Take for example any animal in the kingdom of mammals. They each have characteristics that attract the opposite sex. The peacock that shows the most colorful and large array of feathers attracts the opposite sex peacock.


They aren’t thinking about it - they can’t convince themselves that this peacock is a good mom, or that they are really kind – because it is all chemicals. Well humans have those same drives and chemicals, and what most men are attracted to are perky boobs, small waist, and child bearing hips. Now I know there are exceptions, and I am also not saying that a man or woman can’t love someone that is 400 lbs.


They certainly can, and they certainly can get past this and not have it bother them. Humans do have this capability.

But what I AM saying is that every man would be more sexually attracted to his woman if she had those secondary sexual characteristics and body shape that God, or the Great IS intended (the same goes for men having an attractive physique as well). So, isn’t it strange to think that plastic surgery (to make the women a step closer to what is the perfect form) is wrong or vain? I just don’t get it. Further more, I have met MANY women who have had work done, and not a single one of them regret it. In fact, they all feel better about themselves and feel more attractive. How can that be a bad thing? Everyone wants to feel more attractive.

But here is the sad thing. My brother told me a story about an old friend of his that was a big tub of goo. He was still a funny and nice guy, but he had just changed from the stunning tan and buff guy that existed in high school. He later got a divorce despite his deep love for his wife and my brother saw him again about 6 or 8 months after the divorce. My bro made a comment like – oh my you look so great. And he said to him “I knew that I could never get a girl by looking the way I did, so I got in shape again.” When I heard this, I thought that this statement was very sad. I didn’t understand why he would get himself looking GREAT for someone he didn’t know or really care about, but he wouldn’t do the same for the person he cared about more than anyone else in this world.

So really, what is my point? My point is this. Everywhere I turn, it seems like someone is getting a divorce, or just went through a divorce, or is telling me about their problematic marriage, or whatever. I know marriage is complicated and at times attractiveness has little to do with it – but maybe sometimes it does have a little to do with it. I do know in some cases that it made a huge difference when the woman is not attracted to her man because he is a lardo (for example.) But here is the bottom line, I think if you really love your partner, you should want to please him in every way, and that means looking as good as you can – and sometimes that would include plastic surgery and I don’t think that is shameful or wrong at all. I know a great couple and they get up very early every morning and go to the gym together so that they will look good for one another. I just love that they do that.

But, if you don’t want to get sliced with the surgeon knife, then that is okay too, there are still a lot of other things you can do. And here is the truth about that--I think we learned a ton this last year hearing about Michael Phelp’s diet. He ate 12,000 calories a day, and looked rock solid. And it was crappy, crappy food. So what is the message? It matters very little what we eat, but matters a LOT what we DOOOOO. So do more. Park far away and walk fast to Wal-Mart or even run. Take the stairs all the time. Get on your bike. Run with the dog rather than walk. My brother in-law once lost a TON of weight by riding a bike everywhere he went along with lifting weights. The pay off is that not only will your friend/lover/domestic partner like the way you look; you will love the way you feel.

My new friend DOVE runs almost every morning. That is so very commendable and cool – and hard. Good job Dove!

So if you do get plastic surgery – I have some tips.
1. If you get a tummy tuck – make sure the surgeon combines the tuck with some side and flank lipo. This is very important in the final look of things. If you watch Dr. 90210, that fruitcake does not do this.
2. If you do get a tummy tuck, strongly consider getting the breast implants. It is a little more, but I have met many that regret not doing this at the same time as the tuck. It really adds to the look.
3. If you do get breast implants, look for a surgeon that does under the muscle. This leaves a much more natural look and feel. Plus they last much longer and stay looking normal much longer. In fact, they may never need revised, unlike over the muscle implants. Over the muscle implants eventually will stretch the skin and tissue, which will need a breast lift and revision eventually. Surgeons will often try to convince you otherwise because below the muscle takes more time and requires more skill. More time to do the surgery means less money for the surgeon. Plus, many never learned this better technique well.
4. Please don’t go BIG. At least in my taste, that looks ridiculous and fake. We are going for the perfect body, not the ridiculous “I work at HOOTERS” body. Gross.


Finally, I think you should feel lucky that physiology for humans is the way it is. It could be much worse. Did you know that to attract a female goat, the male goat would urinate on his head for the smell? See, aren’t we lucky?


-PagerStalker